WW2 pilot tries IL2

This was posted by Rampenplan in the UBI forum:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9951084814/p/1

"A friend of my family flew for the Luftwaffe in the war. He has a large amount of anecdotes about his time there, and I thought it would be educational to me to see how he would do in IL2.

It took a while to get him used to the controls, because he is not used to using computers. Also, he can’t fly long before tiring his eyes. Apart from those things, he seems not to be overly interested in flightsimming and I suspect he did it mainly to please me.

He wanted to fly the Me262, ‘because he wanted to know what it was like’. He got turned down when he applied to be transferred to jets, and I guess he’s still curious. What I wanted was to see him fly the 109E and the 190A, which were his machines in the war. Is just sat to the side making notes and helping him with the keyboard. He was very impressed with the graphics in the game, his impressions of computers being calibrated on ‘pong’.
After a number of testflights in a Finnish Brewster, to get him used to the controls, he started with the Emil. He had to get a bit used to the flight model. According to him, the real 109 was ‘stiffer’. It would want to go in a straight line, and you’d have to work to get it to turn; relaxing the controls would very quickly return you to a straight line. The radius of turn and the turn speed were OK according to his recollection, but to do it often would require ‘Riesenmuskeln’. My stick setup is already very stiff, so that must have been impressive. HE didn’t turn much when at speed, mostly curving gently. The climb and acceleration were a bit optimistic according to him. Such climb should be possible, but only if you had the exact right ‘feel for the wing’, not just b puting the nose up. In fighting, he took a lot of time to get into position, and preferred to go for positions in which he had at least two seconds uninterrupted firing time. After that, he’d break off, even if the attack had failed to do damage. He’d shoot quite accurately, even with difficult deflection shots. However, if there was any indication he might be targeted by an enemy, he’d go fully into the defensive. Especially after he learned to mistrust his AI wingmen. Even during attack approaches, he’d be throwing his view all over the glass of the cockpit, and always on the widest available angle. When landing he’d be very careful, make a long approach and touching down straight, flaring and slow. Maybe because he spent a good few months in hospital in '40 after crashing his Emil on landing.

In the 190a4, his first remark was ‘Warum gibt’s kein Panzerglas?’, and the second was about the ReVi being mounted too low. Front visibility was completely wrong, according to him. This was compounded by the flight attitude that should have been more tail-high. When gunning the engine for take-off, he jammed the stick into his crotch, and was very surprised when his tail started slipping sideways regardless. I locked his tailwheel manually thereafter, but he insisted that should also be more effective.

The first time he took off, he immediately landed because he thought his engine was running badly. I explained to him random engine trouble isn’t modeled, but he has trouble seeing the extents of the simulation, expecting everything to be modeled that he can see.
Surprisingly, he doesn’t think the E loss in curves is too much. Even more surprisingly, he thinks straight flight drag is too light (said while overshooting the runway with 600 km/h). Then he made remarks about the engine giving accurate performance when at high speed, but too little thrust at speeds lower than 350-400 km/h. One of his combat moves is a very rough near-stall high-speed turn, dropping a lot of speed, then accelerating - which last part doesn’t happen. That annoyed him a bit.
He did like the maneuverability of the a4. The FW was nice to maneuver, because it was very light in the controls compared to the 109E. He was much more eager to pull violent moves in the FW. It was easy to pull the acing vector away from the heading vector. He did consider the rudder too ‘sharp’ though. That should have been less useful. Still, most maneuvers would be quite gradual. After a violent move, he’d often fire very short bursts from his wing guns. He said that was to stop them jamming.

In the 190, when confronted with roaming fighters, he’d refuse to engage. He’d just look for a different target. Quite different from my ‘kill everyhin’ approach. When attacked, he held his own, once making a very impressive aerobatic move: A Spit came in fast on his high 6, which was answered with a throttle cut and a clockwise barrel roll with a steep pull-up, ending up firing from almost-stall vertically down into the Spits cockpit. When I try, I crash.

He never liked flying against Spits. He said they could still give him nightmares. Once, when pursued by a cautious AI Spit, he suddenly started firing his wingguns into open space. When asked, he said you shouldn’t have a bomb inside your wing when there’s a Spit behind you. He was dumping his ammo.
He remembers viidly how his plane was hit with Hispano’s. He says the little clunk we hear now is nothing compared to the shock, vibration and deafening noise of getting any part of the plane hit by 2cm. Rifle calibre would also make noise, but mainly when hitting something substantive, like armour, engine, or heavier stiffeners. When he fired upon a Lightning, and took off a wing and a boom with a single burst, he was quite surprised. He said it was very rare taking off large structural parts, but a lot of paneling should come off, and fires shoudl be more frequent. When it happened a few times more (wing shedding I mean) he said it was something you’d expect after a long wing fire, when carrying vulnerable ordnance, or when hit with 3cm a lot, but not otherwise. When landing the 190 the first time, he landed much more roughly than with the 109. After making touchdown, he jammed his stick back, causing the bouncing tailwheel nose-over. That baffled him, saying that this was wholly unrealistic.

On approaching bombers: in the war, he relied on being vectored in to determine his approach. On a head-on pass, one would try to damage the formation. Large formations would have trouble reforming after being disrupted. After the pass, a return would be made from the side or behind. When one would have a good target (i.e. no close-by other bombers that could fire) one’d park on his 6 and pick off his engines. He aslo says that real bombers would spray MG fire from the moment they saw you comin in, and in almost random directions. They’d have trouble tracking you and just put up curtains of fire. When approaching a flight of 4 B17s from high 7, he showed that you were pretty well-protected if you kept them all just hidden behind your cowling; either they’d hit your engine (und es ist nur Halbzollfeuer)or your Panzerglas, so you were quite safe. That is when he was PK’d at 700 meters with the first burst.

One thing he really missed was ground contact. Ground control would be constantly giving information on position, vector to be taken and enemy presence. Without it, he felt quite lost.

The AI was something of an irritation. Not only do they do suicidal things, but he tracked a P38, saying ‘with this kind of maneuvering, he’ll be dead tired soon and I can shoot him then’. It took some convincing that the AI never gets tired.

When flying the a8, most of the above applied. He likes the 30mm we have, saying it is more reliable than the real thing. The damage it does is not quite what he remembers. A hit in the fuselage would silence bomber gunners, and on engines it would be less effective than 20mm. It would destroy propellers, and loosen large chunks of skin though. De-skinning a wing would send a bomber into a spiral. With the a8, he would want to know in advance the location of Leichte Flak, and whenever he’d get pursued, he’d dive towards it. Flak accuracy in game is equal to Hitlerjugend operated Flak, if I understand him correctly. Good Flak would fire short, well-calculated bursts, with much higher accuracy than we have. His advice on dealing with AA is to keep speed up and not get in view too long. The trick was to be in and out before the gunners had readied and swivelled. After that, the fire was murderous.

Random observations: Lightnings turn wider in game than he remembers, and B17s go down too easily to cannon fire."


Very interesting, especially compared with all the luftwhiners complain about Allied and Axis planes! :cool:

Very interesting. Wonder what version he tried?
(Reading the thread to see if there’s more info in there somewhere.)

Guess there’s a little for both sides in the post:

relaxing the controls would very quickly return you to a straight line. The radius of turn and the turn speed were OK according to his recollection, but to do it often would require ‘Riesenmuskeln’. My stick setup is already very stiff, so that must have been impressive. HE didn’t turn much when at speed, mostly curving gently. The climb and acceleration were a bit optimistic according to him.

and

In the 190a4, his first remark was ‘Warum gibt’s kein Panzerglas?’, and the second was about the ReVi being mounted too low. Front visibility was completely wrong, according to him. This was compounded by the flight attitude that should have been more tail-high.

and

Lightnings turn wider in game than he remembers, and B17s go down too easily to cannon fire.

:smiley:

Very interesting interview, may be it deserve to become a pdf to be kept among downlodables:)

Well, it still remains to be seen if it’s authentic, or someone just doing it for fun, unfortunately a very real possibility.

Well, it still remains to be seen if it’s authentic, or someone just doing it for fun, unfortunately a very real possibility.

Same thought i got, Mikke. There is no name behind the tale. Strange (read the entire original post)
Read the following also, apparently more “consistent” (name of the pilot and source in clear, and also a pic showing his face)


Source:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2911059443/r/8511079443#8511079443

Former article on Aviation Magazine

July, 2005Mr. Volkmar Löwenherz, a Messerschmidt 109 pilot assigned to
2./JG77 during the later parts of Germany’s involvement in WWII, was recently interviewed by our very own Nick Ahctog.

Nick Ahctog: Guten Tag, Heir Löwenherz. I am told that you have recently been exposed to IL-2 [Sturmovik series, including IL-2 Forgotten Battles, Aces Expansion Pack, and Pacific Fighters by UbiSoft Entertainment and Maddox 1C development. Updated with the recent released 4.01 update].
Mr. Löwenherz: Hello to you. Ya, my grandson enjoys the aviation sims, and
during a recent visit it was shown to me to try.
N.A.: I’m sure our readers would be extremely interested in your thoughts compared to your relative experiences. Can you give us a little background on your flight experience?
V.L.: I was raised in Rudolstadt, and while at University was summoned to serve. My aptitude was to be a pilot, which pleased me since I was fascinated with planes. I trained to fly at Wittenberge in July of 1944. In November I was charged to 2 staffel of fighter squadron 77. I stayed assigned to 77 until the end of war.
N.A.: What aircraft did you fly?
V.L.: Pilots were few for the fighter units, so our training was fast. I was taught on a Bücker [Bücker Bü 131], a basic bi-plane.

Then moved right to the Messerschmidt-109 Gustav.

Although I wanted to fly the Folke Wulf, there were few to be had, and my Jagdgeschwader had only the 109. I am glad for the 109. It was a very wonderful fighter and quite deadly. In November I first flew the G6, but shortly after, we received our first G14. They were much improved in the engine, and we carried the 30mm cannon in the nose to fight the bombing raids. I liked the 20mm, but the 30mm was very deadly. In February the staffel received the first Kurfürst, but I did not fly one, even though I wished to.
N.A.: What combat experience do you have?
V.L.: I shot thirteen aircraft. Eight of those were the fortress bomber [B-17]. Three were the Mustang [P-51], and two were the Thunder [P-47 Thunderbolt].
N.A.: That is quite impressive! To what do you owe your success?
V.L.: I don’t consider them success. I did not wish to kill the men. I was doing my duty in defending my fatherland. But there were many Americans in the sky. One merely had to suprise them from a good position. But there were always more, so you didn’t fight for long. Luck had much to do with my credits.
N.A.: Of course. So you have had some to experience Il-2. What are your impressions?
V.L.: It is a game for the computer, but I found it quite enjoyable and true. At first, my grandson spent some time adjusting the controls to meet my memory of feel, but it is difficult to compare when sitting at a desk. The 109 seemed to respond quite well to the controls. I remember it turned quite well. Much better than the Mustang. We would turn to them in a fight and they would run. I liked the G14 because it had the power to catch them. The Mustang was not as fast as the G14, so we could catch them unless other Mustangs prevented us. The Thunder [P-47 Thunderbolt] was large and very fast, but many times the Americans would turn to fire on another aircraft, and we could fire on them. It seemed the 109 turned true to how I remember its response. Speed was good. I do not remember the top speed, but I remember low flying at 500 kilometers per hour or more. It was very exhilarating and felt the same on the game. I found the guns to be somewhat accurate. The 30mm cannon would do extensive damage, but several times I used my 13mm to damage the Americans. In the game I hit a Mustang in the wing. I saw the explosion from the shell, but the wing did not come off. A hit like that would instaly remove the wing in real life, so not seeing the damage was disappointing. A Mustang once gave me a good burst when I surprised from the sun. I dove to a cloud and did not see him again. After that flight I realized I had taken a number of bullets, but recieved little noticable damage. I found it curious that the Americans would use such inferior weapons, but thanked fate that they were so. In the game a Mustang shot my aircraft. My grandson showed me a way to look outside the airplane, and the damage seemed heavy. Where there should have been little struture damage for many rounds, there were large holes. How were such holes made? Such is the game I suppose. Not real.
N.A.: How would you rate the realism of the game compared to your experiences?
V.L.: It is, after all, a game, so
it is hard to compare. I think a very fine job has been done for the 109. Much detail has been given to the cockpit as I remember it so. It flies much as I remember it. Nimble, quick and deadly. Also, in the game the Mustang was too fast and had too much in guns, but as I said, it is a game built to Americans. But I found it pleasurable to pretend to fly my lovely Messerschmitt once again. It brought me much joy.
N.A.:I thank you very much for your time and your insight! It’s been a great experience for me.

++++

Nice one, but… try to go at the above mentioned link and have look at the picture at the end of the post. One of the readers of the article put another link in the forum. This:
http://prfamerica.org//APA_stops_carport.html
Are Volkmar Löwenherz and Richard Willemin the same person, apparently?
Who made the fraud? And why?
True story or not? Who can prove any certain about Internet? :wink:

Be careful, my friends. Assumption is the mother of all fuckups! :slight_smile:

Yup, thats why I want more info.

Should the (original) story be true, there is only 3 possible names of aces with 41 confirmed kills (not counting the pilots that got 41 kills in night fighters): Robert Olejnik, Johannes Schmidt, Gerhard Schneider
Of course there could be some faults in the published figures, but the number of LW pilots with similar amount of kills should still not be very big.

Unlike some in the original thread who think it doesn’t matter wether it’s true or made up, I really want to know if it’s true or not, if it’s not, it’s quite worthless for me even if it was well written and/or belivable.

I say this carefully, because I mean no offense and I have the gretaest respect for vetrans of all countries who flew and fought. But even if it is genuine, how much value should we attach to it? As a first hand account of someone who flew and fought it would be marvellous - but as a technical assessment?

Think back to your first cars, for example. In 1976 I had a Renault 10 for about a year, then I got a little Triumph Spitfire sports car. I can visualise them easily, but could I really try out a “driving sim” and say if it was true to those vehicles or not? Could I comment in detail on the handling, performance, braking of those cars? The visibility from the drivers seat? And that is after a gap of 30 years - the gap we are talking about in this case is double that.

Good point PeeGee, I don’t think I would get 100% right with my last car, not even sure about the present one without a real side by side comparison. But I still think I could make a decent comparison, and some things is etched pretty solidly in my memory, the way the steering got awful hard when the engine stopped (only happened once or twice), the feeling of doing a 180 just using the throttle almost without the front wheels moving (provided the surface was right) etc. I can definetly say the vision from the 505 was/is among the best I’ve seen. :wink:

In short, I still think an assesment would be of value, it sure wouldn’t be 100% right, but definetly interesting.

Excellent point PeeGee it’s anecdotal. He’s sure he remembers but he doesn’t really- he was too busy to remember fights in detail. When you have a fight you don’t remember what happened you just got stuck in, then later looking back you recreate what you think must have happened…

More interesting (for flight-testing info) would be hearing from pilots who were trained to remember these things, then we could put more store by them

Great read mind! But we must be realistic on claims based on anecdotal evidence. With the rider that many anecdotes saying the same thing would be more proof-positive of something real of course :slight_smile:

Ming

Discussing those kind ofthings here in our forum is always intersting. i always find people eager to learn something more about their mistakes. On the other hand if you look at most of the discussions in other forum (even the Italian ones) those kind of accounts (even if they are true) ends up with discussion about the flight model of the game and the “wrong” performances of the (axis) palnes…

Well, at least it was a nice read, true or not.

I don´t agree 100% about the car comparison though. You need to drive a car to the very limit to notice the real differences, as you would with a fighter aeroplane in battle.

I have been racing with cars a couple of years in my youth, and I still remember and can compare the performance of those cars with the ones I drive now.
I can also make a comparison to different car games, take for example GTR. When driving an oversteered car like a Porsche you will usually set up a sideway slip to avoid the initial tendency to underrsteer. As the back then starts to move (oversteer), then you will use the power of the engine to control and straighten up the car through the curve to come out with full acceleration.
But in a game like GTR, every car understeer (wants to go straight ahead in a curve). No car with engine in the back and a powerful engine will behave like that in real life. IMHO, GTR cannot simulate the way you drive an advanced car like a Porsche as fast as possible in the curves. Instead it feels like I was driving something like a Saab, or any similar frontwheel driven car. It feels very awkward and unrealistic for me.

That´s why I think there is a great value in letting experienced pilots try out a simm game and give their impressions.