My wish is for all....

folks who play IL2 to stop gaming the game…God it depresses me, you spend ages getting into position, someone jumps on your six { in a 109} and you pull a tight turn with the Spit…now I have been really lucky and spoke to many BofB pilots and each would tell you that the 109 cannot turn inside the Spit, never , cant, real life says no!! but in game, well, folks just drop flaps { cause thats how they really did it } use the trim slider, flaps on sliders etc and boom, shoot yer aircraft down…its enough to fuck you off for a long time…so to all those out there who do this…UP YER HOLE!!
Its as bad as hanging around with yer engine shot out, thinking to yourself “one kill, just one kill, then I’ll go home, cause when I crash, nothing is going to happen to me” instead of heading home, with yer arse reaking due to the thought of possible death…but hey, its only a game…and a bloody frustrating one at that… wish folks would take the game a bit more serious and try to recreate history…but I suppose its only a dream!

Puff wanders off to bed, dejected and sad at IL2,muttering to himself :frowning:

Thought the trim slider exploit was fixed ages ago?

Not sure about limiting flap use - I agree the average pilot in WW2 wouldn’t think of using them in combat, but only the other week I was reading about a forgotten RAAF ace in Western Desert (name escapes me) who apparently had used flaps + gear(!) to make his opponent’s overshoot and get in a firing position…

Maybe unusual but not completely unhistoric?

Again - dodgy engine - most folks would head home - but then there is always the one or two nutters who will decide to take the enemy with them on the way out…

(Another example - ramming - if someone did that regularly in an online war to kill bombers you might say that is ‘gamey’ - but the Soviets turned Taran into an accepted tactic…).

Just my 2penneth…:slight_smile:

Ramming: Entierly realistic:

Numerous examples even from RAF records such as Wing Commander Kenneth William Mackenzie being awarded the DFC for downing a BF109 over the channel using this Tactic.

RAFVR Sergeant Bruce Hancock of No.6 SFTS rammed a Heinkle 111.

Flight sergeant Ray Homes ( 504sqdrn) downs a Do-17 over London.

There are also recorded incidents of the Polish pilots serving with the RAF using Taran attacks and being ordered specificaly NOT to by command.

On the russian front, trading an outdated fighter for a modern techologicaly superior bomber was considered sound tactics.


Every aircraft has its best turn speed, if you are beyond or below yours and your adversary is flying at his best turn speed, then he is going to out turn you. It does not matter what your flying, if you fly to your opponents strengths your asking for it.

Flaps Use:

AFAIK the BF 109 used a manual flap system and as such it was possible to set flap angles to increase turn performance ( whether or not there exists any anecdotal evidence of this is beyond my knowledge ). With the possibility existing though, i find it hard to accept that it was not used on occasions when needed unless its use had a severe detrimental effect on the aircraft handling. Whilst this might have actualy been the case, it is not within this, what is essentialy a game designed for PC’s from 8 years ago.

I have large hopes for the fidelity of Maddox’s BOB.

Nightmare sounds like Puff

Glad I wasn’t on your comms channel mind :slight_smile:


Was an end to a frustating night for me, was somewhat annoyed :). As far as known, no Luftwaffe pilot used flaps in combat to try and outturn the RAF, could end up as dead meat if he did and since his life was on the line, he dived out and away…but being this is a game, I suppose I need to let things happen and not get to pissed orf.
I did manage to lose you gents but in my defence I did manage to keep up with you lot till we broke to investigate the contacts at Folkstone, they turned out to be Spits and when I formed up on you chaps, well it was the wrong bunch of spits I tailed onto , by then I had lost sight of you. I had a tangle with a couple of 109’s at 22000ft and then they all buggered off home, so I headed to the RV point and thats when I heard your call, seen you low and started to attack, shit meself when Joe popped into my line of sight as I was about to shoot, good job on his part nailing that 109, and when I turned hard to get back into the fray there was a 109 on my 6, my speed was at 180mph and I was turning easily inside him { could look at the top of his nose pointing behind me ], then saw him fire and bang, no bloody rudder, so it was straighten out and jump time, swam back and had a pint in the Old Goose!
The game/realism debate will continue for a LOOONG time so I guess I’ll just have to bite the bullet and know I fly full real where some will ‘bend’ the rules to game the game and accept the concequences of not doing the same. :slight_smile:

Oh and being Scottish…I’ll just have a moan and then get on with it lol

My humble, yet firm, conviction is that Spitfire is generally far superior to the 109: ok, it’s slower in climbs, dives and level flight, then what? I’m confident that any good Spit pilot will shoot down any good 109 pilot 90% of the times in a 1vs1 engagement, if both start with the same energy.:wink:
The 109 is a great energy fighter, but like the 190 or the P-47, it strictly needs an energy advantage to deploy all its potential over an opponent: without it, I think it’s just an average aircraft. The Spit, instead, is very good in every situation and has an edge on every enemy, unless it enters a combat with an energy disadvantage.:cool:

Now, this is true for all the cases, except when it comes to Spit Mk.I vs. 109E4!:o
The Mk.I suffers so much negative Gs that a 109 can just push forward the stick, then split-S and disappear under the Spit’s now before the latter is able to roll over and follow, which summed to the gap in diving speed means that the 109 can always easily escape relatively unharmed even if under fire… Because Spit’s 8 Brownings are not powerful enough to inflict a fatal blow in the very short time the 109 remains inside the aiming reticle, unless the distande is very close to the convergence one! On the other hand, 109E4 has a much bigger firepower and just 2 20mm rounds can cut off the wing of a Spitfire, as happend several times during the SEOW…:frowning:
So, 109E4 has usually the upper hand and what remains to the Spit Mk.I is its better turning ability, but even this one is only evident at low speed, let’s say under 350 km/h!!! At higher speeds, the 109 can turn with the Spit or even inside it, and this is what commonly happens in combat when, with an enemy at 6, the Spit pilot split-Ses and then tries to out-turn the 109: the German easily follows the dive and then, at high speed (normally around 400 km/h), is able to keep the turn and fire deflection shots to the Brit, which usually results in the destruction of the latter.:frowning:

So Puff, if that’s what happend to you yesterday, take it easy!:wink: It has happend to all of us several times, and if you consider that normally Axis pilots master their planes better than we do (cause they fly only 2 models) and somehow seem to use better team tactics (what you said, in fact: you take position behind one, and after 5 secs an other 109 is behind you…:o), you should realize that you don’t have to stress too much for that!:wink:
In the end, IT IS JUST A GAME!:slight_smile:

EDIT: obviously I wrote while you were posting your last comment, Puff! Didn’t know about your speed and all the other info you added… Anyway, I agree with you on everything except stressing so much for just one mission!:wink:
What should I say, then? I crashed on take-off cause I didn’t see the 2D trees (invisible from ground level) in front of me at the end of the airfield…:mad: That’s less realistic than anything else!!!:smiley:

Yep, I agree its a game, but have a small read at this site, and you’ll notice how the Mk1 in game is ‘slightly’ less realistic in some respects to the 109’s…makes for some interesting reading :slight_smile: and a lot of these reports are from the real mcoy, not a game :slight_smile:

Puff - we went buster when Joe heard you and Sporran under attack - just couldn’t get to you in time.

I was so angry I chased a 109 back to France with my fuel light on Red and ended up KIA after his mates turned up…

Ah don’t worry Flash, was fine, just got a fright when Joe appeared from nowhere lol…

I have probably written someting like this before. I think we have something in common. I know the frustration of other pilots carelessness. But in order for Oleg and his team to produce something that could make money they had to make a lot of compromises. Some of those are attracting the casual simmer while those of us that are in for the immersion suffer.

Ce la vie! (That is life) and those are the facts. The only way we can have our way are to choose who we fly with and what servers/campaigns we fly in.

Regarding the flaps; Have you ever wondered why the flaps settings have been named: Combat Flaps, Takeoff flaps and Landing flap?!
I think it was named to make it easier for the casual simmer. For those that do not have a spare analouge axies for flaps.
Using flaps in combat might give them the edge to get a kill, but it might as well leave them low on energy and ready to be killed.

I use combat flaps, but never when in a 6’o’clock :cool:.
(I rather make a -yo)

I know the frustration. I have had similar while flying SE and was quite surprised when a 109 was turning almost inside me. I had to drop flaps full, add trim and stay in a sustained turn for ages before his 109 was forced to drop off, but then he just regained height very fast and put me back in trouble. I was literally teetering on a stall by the time he pulled off.

I dunno if it was like this in reality, but it seems a lot harder to outturn 109s than it it should be.

Not true to life Peace…if you look at the link I posted a couple of threads back, there are over 40 combat reports showing the Mk1a to be

a} superior in the climb at most alts
b] faster at over 15000ft and the same speed at lower alts
c] have a far superior turn rate, 636ft / 360 deg to the 109’s 864ft / 360deg

makes for some fantastic reading, considering these guys actually where in combat, not playing a flight sim, or just reading figures and going by that…if they got it wrong, they didn’t come back.

According to this page the gap between the Spit and the 109 in Bob where small.

So when we get to the performance edge, in IL-2, we get to open the can of inaccuracies :rolleyes:

There are no doubt that there are errors in the IL-2 engine.
Personally I doubt the flightmodel of the Fw190A are correct when realworld reports clearly states that the 190A2,3 and 4 where beating the Spit Mk.V easily AND only when the Mk. IX arrived the situation turned. But that is the limitations of the game. IL2 are the best WWII produced yet. It is an old game and have its limitations.

Flying tests reveiled that BoB type Spits and ME-109 were very close in performing. The differences between planes of the same type could be greater than differences between the types (HP difference, maintenance/build quality, blade types etc.).

But a lot of ME-109 pilots did not trust the thin wing desing fully and would back off in a turn when the slats came out (whit a loud bang). The slats were there to help turn performance but in practice they stopped pilots from turning sharper.

Spitfire pilot could rely on their sturdy wing desing and had the psycological advantage: “my plane turns better”. And they just would keep thigthening the turn and thus win the turn fight as predicted. But it was the pilot that made the difference.

IL-2 can be more accurate than we think. 109 pilots have no fear of folding wings now. Some of our EAF310 pilots are masters in turning the ME 109.

BTW: I hate the ME-109 on my six too. Without a wingie to help you out it can be very frustrating indeed ;).

Just found this Puff from someone on the UBI forum. How the 109 flaps operate…

Bit of an eye opener.

Thx peace, I’ll talk to Scott and the guys when Im next testing

A higher bang sound should have been implemented in the game :smiley:
There are no doubt that such an unnatural sound would make anyone nervous :wink:

Just as I do whenever I fly a russian plan in IL2.

But those that eventually got use to it would not hesitate doing it over and over again :cool:

About the trim in the 109 I found the below statement in a book I am currently reading, Luftwaffe Eagle by Walter Schuck.

In certain manoeuvres I would also make full use of the large tailplane trim wheel down beside my seat. Spinning this wheel would, admittedly, cause the whole aircraft to shudder and vibrate badly, but it gave me an extra edge during sharp turns.

Great book btw with (halfway through). Lots of photos and gives a good account of being a Luftwaffe fighter pilot. :slight_smile:

How is flying a Me 109?
Mark Hanna did it. Read his feelings at, history pages, tales downoad.

Direct link [u]HERE[/u] (click right and save as)

Also a comparative test between Me 109 andd Spit as flown both by Robert Stanford Tuck, [u]HERE[/u]

At the same page is also possible to download the italian translation of the same articles
(How many good things we have on our website? :stuck_out_tongue: )

Great book I’ve got it as well, a signed copy from Duxford.